Tag: race

Debates

The Race Debate – Part 1

Posted on by PNQEMDUDvQ

Note: This was an actual debate, transcribed by me. A lot of truth was manifested in this debate due to the fact that most of our participants never held back their views. Everyone’s names have been changed. I’m under my pen-name, STUPOR, once again. Remember to read this with an open-mind because it is vital to the understanding of these issues as a whole, and I emphasize the word whole.

Dan
Quit saying African-American. Fuck, I hate politically correct people.

Tom
Thank you.

STUPOR (ME)
Too much white pride here? (Regarding the previous conversation unwritten here)

Tom
It has nothing to do with pride. Do we call white people European Americans? If you’re born here you’re a fucking American. Black, white, yellow, whatever….

Dan
Exactly my point. Exactly.

STUPOR
But do you really think there is such thing as an American?

Tom
Why yes, yes I do.

STUPOR
Let me put it in another way…do you think we’re all equal in America?

Dan
Obviously this is America, and if we’re born here, we’re American.

STUPOR
I know what you mean, but you can’t deny the fact that there are class distinctions topped with a little bit of white pride and it’s sure coming off well here. Everyone wants to hide the fact that we’re living in a racist society. Everyone wants to ignore class distinctions in America. I just want to put this to your attention. All this ignorance is just an invisible system of keeping the poor poorer and the rich richer. Race ties into this and it’s by way of invisible systems.

Dan
It matters where our descendents come from, but it does not make us European or African, or some ridiculous continent hybrid. “Hi, I’m an Austral-Eurasian-African-American.”

Tom
Assigning minorities names based on ancestral origin just for political sake broadens the gap even further as far as I’m concerned. And yes, if you’re born in America, why wouldn’t you be equal as anyone else? And I’m not referring to socio-economic status. If you’re born on this mound of dirt called America, you’re an American. People always have to make a political jargon out of everything.

John
Ah yes, one of my favorite George Carlinisms.

Pat
Black people don’t have computers… retard!

STUPOR
Oh boy…this is what I mean when I say white pride…

John
You are so dumb.

John
In case you’re wondering, I say this all the time. And yes, in case you’re wondering, I do have black friends.

STUPOR
Do you want a medal for that?

John
The reason you’re dumb is because you fail to see that someone saying “black people don’t own computers” is mocking racism. If you find it so offensive, you must believe it to be true. I find it absolutely absurd, which is why it’s funny.

Tom
Exactly. Quit trying to make this into a pride/prejudice thing.

STUPOR
Tell your black friends what you said right now. I’m sure you couldn’t.

John
I do every single day. They laugh their asses off.

Tom
We all know there are class distinctions; you don’t have to remind us. Also, quit equating the dismissal of political correctness to racism. It’s annoying and inaccurate. Some of us just like to keep it simple, okay? People seem to think that calling someone “black” has gained an infinitely pejorative meaning. The act of having to constantly remind ourselves of this, by having to go to such lengths as assigning minorities with names like blank Americans, seems to perpetuate the whole thing.

STUPOR
When did I say anything about political correctness and what not? I don’t care much about it either. You guys are getting way too nervous and defensive.

John
Um, not really. I don’t think we’re fumbling at all. On the contrary, I think that would be you.

Tom
What started out as a discussion on the legitimacy of PC turned to race and class because of you. You linked the two, so that’s why I said it was annoying.

STUPOR
Why is it wrong to talk about it or talk about it in a manner in which you’ve never heard of before?

Dan
You’re damn right I’m proud of my race. I’m glad to be me. But, there’s an even bigger race, and that’s called humanity. We are living in a racist society, because people seem to think that everything must equal out. Some Africans sold some of their people to Americans and Europeans decades ago, so now we’ve got black history month because it’s “the right thing to do.” There are rich white people just as there are rich black people. There are poor white people just as there are poor black people. Some people just want to work more, while some people inherit their riches. We shouldn’t try and make everything equal… this isn’t Russia, you know. If you like being in a place where you’re equal to everyone else, then by all means feel free to move to a communist country.

STUPOR
You don’t get everything by working hard. You can work as hard as you can, but you may not have the same opportunities. As I said before, life is not what you make it. It’s exactly the opposite. Some are born into this world with limitations. Due to the fact that I am who I am, I will probably not make it as far as one that might be part of the dominant class. And about equality, of course we’re all equal in the sense that we’re all human…but not structurally or socio-economically among other things. And what’s wrong with communism? The people who look down upon it are more or less advocating right wing conservatism.

Dan
If you would have heard everything I said, you would have noticed that I said some people have things just handed to them. There are limitations, but an even more common situation is someone telling themselves that they can only do so much. That’s a sure-fire way to not succeed.

John
He’s a faggot.

STUPOR
Homophobia is another aspect of this. By the way, your so called ‘mockery’ of the whole situation is a mockery in itself. I’m not going to blatantly say ‘faggot’ to prove manliness.

Dan
Sounds to me like you’re racist.

John
You’re calling me a homophobe? Oh, that’s a good one. You’re calling me, a guy who had a crush on his best friend, a homophobe? STUPOR, why don’t you practice what you preach by refraining from making generalizations about homophobes, skinheads and white people with tattoos. You look like an idiot.

STUPOR
I think all of you guys are having a hard time accepting what I am saying because a lot of it goes unsaid. Maybe this topic is making you nervous, but all the while, you guys continue to make racial jokes and you get fed up..

Dan
Well, from what I’ve heard so far, the only one having a hard time accepting anything is you. We’re not equal. I don’t know where you’re getting the nervous part from… perhaps because you’re feeling a bit of nervousness yourself?

STUPOR
Don’t tell me about oppression, I live it. And I never said we were equal. If you finished hearing everything I said, I specifically said there are invisible systems that limit people due to race and gender. Doesn’t sound like equality to me.

Dan
The only one holding you down is yourself. If you believe in some bullshit conspiracy theory and being held back, you’re just using it for an excuse.

STUPOR
This is not an excuse. You would like to say that we are causing our own problems. Your denial of this matter is only your way of trying to clench on to your dominant status. Any challenge made to that, you tend to jump at. Does it ever occur to you that due to the qualities attached to females, they are paid lower for equal work. The qualities that pertain to women are considered something natural and therefore unskilled. This applies to race as well in many aspects.

Tom
You’re marching to the beat of a different drummer.

Dan
That’s a racist remark son.

Shane
I live in a city that is 60 percent Hispanic and I am white. If anything I am the minority here. I have a lot of friends who are not the same race as I am, and most of them agree that they should not be treated differently. As for racial jokes most of the jokes seemed to be aimed at people who are racist, not at the actual person. Get your head out of your porno italiano ass.

John
Precisely. Racial jokes aren’t directed towards the minority, but towards the people who really are racist.

STUPOR
That’s an interesting take, but there’s also a double standard when you infer that I am a racist. Does it ever occur to you that just by mouthing those words, or even accepting them and laughing at them, you are participating in a racist activity?

John
I’ve come to the conclusion that you are a fucking idiot.

STUPOR
And none of this still changes the fact that your white skin grants you privileges. Just accept it, that’s all I’m asking. By denying your own privileges, you’re ignoring it. You’re striving to sustain your dominant role in the society because you’re afraid your power is being challenged or threatened.

Kat
I do agree with this statement. Its easy for a white person to say that the color of their skin grants them no privileges, but you’ve never been a black man driving through a white suburban town or a Hispanic woman trying to find a high paying job, or at least a job that won’t pay her less because of her gender or ethnicity.

Dan
Just as much, have there ever been a white person driving through a black neighborhood at night?

Kat
I’m a white girl who lives in a ghetto neighborhood, predominantly populated by Puerto Ricans. Do some of ’em hate me because I am white? Yes. Did I say that racism doesn’t work both ways? No. Might some of them dislike me because I went to a better high school, better college than them? Sure, why not. I don’t know why they dislike me. I don’t care. Its easy to gang up on me when there’s a large group of you versus a single one of me.

Dan
If you do not care why those people hate you, why are you taking the time to care about other things that are being said here?

Kat
Because I find it interesting. I’ve never debated with people who have held your point of view, and the best way to try and see where you are coming from is to debate, no? Although this is a crappy debate because a lot of what I say gets messed up, it’s better than nothing I suppose.

Dan
The claim that Hispanic women won’t find a high-paying job is a bit ridiculous. My girlfriend’s mother has been denied a few jobs just because she can’t speak Spanish. She can’t speak Spanish! In America! And she can’t get some jobs!

Kat
Does the job require her speaking Spanish? Maybe your girlfriend’s mother should learn it? I have; not so hard.

Dan
What you don’t seem to understand is that her mother would not be able to learn Spanish and work full time all at once.

Kat
Well, because that point wasn’t brought up originally, you just said she didn’t get the job because she doesn’t speak Spanish. It’s a bit biased to say that, but whatever, its a whole different argument.

Dan
She would need a job that pays enough for her to pay the rent, the bills, and for food and clothing. Then she would have to spend her time and money learning a language that she should not have to. This is America.

Kat
I’m aware, but thanks.

Dan
In case you didn’t notice, which you obviously haven’t due to your responses, we speak English in America, not Spanish.

Kat
Ahh, English, I know it well.

Dan
It’s funny that you can live here in America, not speak a lick of English, and expect to be catered to fully; while those of us who have lived here our whole lives are forced to adapt.

STUPOR
As you said, this is America. It’s diverse. Learn to cope.

Kat
I never said that. I happen to agree that you should speak English if you live here. But face it, America is a country made up of nothing but immigrants, and most of ’em ain’t coming over from the UK. It has to bend both ways…. people have to learn how to speak English, obviously, but we have to bend a little to what is happening in our country and the fact is that there are a lot of Spanish speaking people living here. In NYC alone, there are more Puerto Ricans here than there are on the actual island. Regardless, I don’t believe that Spanish should be made a second language of the states, but… it wouldn’t kill anyone to learn some new languages. But that’s more a fault of the school systems, etc, etc, and how Americans are just dumb compared to many other countries in the world.

Dan
Everyone wants to make it seem like the world is so against anyone who is not white.

Kat
Are you black? No? Then you don’t know what its like to be black. Do you have cancer? Have you? No? then you don’t know what it’s like to be a person who has cancer. Not a general statement, I don’t think. A general statement would be ‘all Puerto Ricans can’t speak English well.’

Dan
So how the hell do you know what it’s like to be black if you’re white? And yes, the statements you’re making are generalizations, regardless if you’re too stupid to understand the fact.

Kat
Um, enlighten me as to why. And I’ve managed to not resort to name calling, why can’t you? People seem to take debates way too seriously. I’m not making any personal attacks on you, I’ve actually found your comments here pretty amusing. So, if you feel like I’m attacking you, don’t, cause I’m not. We’re just arguing. So please don’t take cheap knocks at my intelligence.

Dan
It’s a fucking cop out.

Kat
And it’s real easy to say it’s a cop out, which would be a cop out in itself, no?

Dan
This goes to prove that you don’t know what you’re talking about. Don’t jump into the middle of a conversation when you can’t hold your own. It’s like the kids who say “you’re an idiot” “no you are” “no, you are!” “you are!”

Kat
Uh, okay? Whatever, it’s like damn impossible to retain any intelligence levels on any debates here. In today’s society, you can’t make a general statement concerning what things must be like for other races simply because you are only the race you are. If you’re white, you can’t imagine what its like to be black. I don’t mean there are grave differences in the person themselves, but there are serious differences when you take in to account what other people think of the color of your skin. Unfortunately, today, if you are born white, you’re one step ahead. And to think that you’re not is being ignorant. I’m not saying its right, I’m saying that’s how it is.

STUPOR
That’s what I’ve been trying to say all along.

Dan
Hey, yeah, now that I think about it… I have this tattoo on my neck that when scanned at the grocery store, I get a 10% discount, excluding milk, alcohol and tobacco of course. Why do I have this tattoo? Because I’m white.

STUPOR
Precisely. You have an invisible set of privileges due to your skin. Don’t deny it, just acknowledge it. That’s all I’m asking for and then maybe we can proceed to higher levels of understanding.

Debates

Nation-Race Personalities Compared to Stages of Growth from Childhood to Adulthood

Posted on by PNQEMDUDvQ

I personally believe there is a tremendous amount to be gained by such a discussion as the distinctions of strengths, weaknesses, differences between the different nations and races of the earth.  Getting to know them is like getting to know one another.  It is not to become separate but to grow together.  It is not to build barriers but to remove them.  It is like courtship, not divorce.
Love comes not just from knowing the good things about one another, but in being aware of the ugly too and loving anyway.  That is a solid love, with nothing to hide.  It enables the blessed nakedness that marriage symbolizes.
I say that such a discussion could be wonderful.

I would begin by pointing out what is probably the biggest difference, the primary dividing line of individuality, and that would be the broad generality of East versus West.  East represents mystical, intuitive, whereas West represents analytical, cognitive.  Right brain and left brain, male and female.
Yet in drawing that distinction, I think immediately of the Native Americans who fit much more into the “East” description with their intuitive connection with things spiritual and their profound reverence for all living creatures.  Could we say that this “East vs. West” distinction could also be demarcated by “Colored vs. White”?

It seems to me that despite national boundaries, people of color seem to be more right-brained than those of a Caucasian complexion.  So perhaps the primary distinction is not between East and West, but is superseded by the more encompassing colored and white distinction.
In making such a distinction, I must say that my love for people of color increases even more because of my reverence and sense of value for the intuitive nature, which I find difficult to foster in myself.  It’s like the husband who venerates his wife for her unique qualities which synergize with his in a yin/yang manner.

Another broad brush stroke, but substantially more specific than the first one just discussed, is the Mideastern nations and races.  I’m thinking of the Arab people and those in India, as well as the Jewish people who stem from and headquarter in that region.  It seems to me that they have an extreme male dominance complex, which suppresses women and shuns their equality — not in a sense of sameness, but of value.  Religiously, they are way back in the law of Moses, with a rigid legality that does not have much room for grace.  Their strength, be it noted, is in their piety toward God and their congeniality toward one another.  It seems they have very strong family unity and deep traditions that tie generations together.

The Negro races of Africa provide another broad brush of characterization, which like with any other generality is certainly to find exceptions at every turn in the individuals who make up those nations.
To me, they seem very child-like and innocent.  Pre-Law of Moses legality as described for the previous characterization.  They are extremely loving and trusting, yet at the same time their lack of interest in things intellectual opens them to exploitation on every hand by scheming dictators, who rape the land and the people in a continual scene of discontent; while if given to benevolent leadership they would probably be among the most delightful places on earth.  Like young children, they would do great under the supervision of loving and understanding parents, but may easily fly into contention when left without that loving supervision.  As a people, they seem to excel in love of music, rhythm, dancing, and physical agility — just as a child who is so limber and who so freely sings or dances without inhibition.

In the spirit of “except ye become as a child, ye cannot enter into the kingdom of God,” these people provide us with an outstanding example to follow.
Latin America provides us with yet another opportunity to consider a broad brush description of unique characteristics of an entire people generally speaking, though again, within that culture exceptions are going to run the entire gamut.
In the chronology of a person from birth to adulthood, as I placed the African people in the early childhood stage of innocence and vital love for life, and the Mideast peoples perhaps more in a late childhood, early adolescence stage where rules and guidelines are the schoolmaster; I would place the Latinos in between these two stages, say at middle childhood.  They are not quite as innocent as the African peoples, but they are not as rigid in rules as the Mideastern peoples.  They are developing an understanding of the need for rules and discipline, but still have the innocence of childhood so as to be able to enjoy the zest of life.

In pondering who the late childhood, early teens in this analogy of the peoples of the earth in different stages of growth would be, the Asian cultures come to mind.  They are still comfortable in a rigidity of rules and structure, but there is a beginning of toying with independent thinking and a tiny dabbling in the exploration of defiance.  They are more comfortable and compatible with the tyranny that rules over them than most any other people of the earth, though they would thrive far more under the loving hand of a free government capable of exerting a firm love without stifling the free spirit.  Japan is much closer in manifesting such a climate than China, though Korea probably excels beyond them all in this ideal, which is manifest in the turbulent history they have exhibited in the last century as they have thrown off the various tyrannies that have attempted to control them, from China, then from Japan, then from Russia.

In pondering the next stage of teen years, continuing with this metaphor, I think of the Asian/Caucasian peoples of the “former” Soviet Republics, who are yet in the bondage of the law, but are more apt to exert their independence and defiance, and who thus receive a heavy hand of oppression to keep them in line.  They, more than the Asian countries, would benefit from a loving firmness more than the brutality to which they are subjected, though their defiant spirit has a love/hate collusional relationship with that brutality and thus helps to perpetuate it.

As for a late teens, young adult phase in this analogy, I think of the European peoples.  They have exerted their independence, left the protective care of dictatorial parents, and have achieved a significant degree of freedom, though they are yet in a rebellious phase to a certain extent, rivaling in their “liberties,” and thus delving into various excesses.  Their challenge is to learn the need to put off their natural man and to receive a new heart through the baptism of the Spirit, so that the body might come into subjection of the Spirit of God, rather than being the master of the passions.

The final stage of development I see, using this metaphor, is early young adulthood.   The nations or peoples I see in this phase are the Americans as well as the Canadians to a lesser extent.  They exerted their independence earlier than the Europeans, and have excelled in indulging in their liberties even more than the Europeans.  And as a corollary, they are more ripe for a baptism of fire as they are coming to their senses and realizing the need for a transformation in their life.

That then brings us to a prophetic statement as to what is in store next.
Having established this comparison between growing from childhood into young adulthood, I would now like to introduce another corollary metaphor — that of entering into marriage, at which stage one has now arrived at full adulthood and is ready to propagate their own offspring.
The husband in this case is the kingdom of heaven, and the bride is the kingdom of God which will be established on earth — which is just around the corner in becoming a reality.
We are in the stage of preparing for that wedding.  And the current suitor, even the kingdom of Babylon, who stakes its claim on the bride, will not give up without a fight.  But the mighty change that will come upon the people who come forth with a broken heart and contrite spirit, will free them from the chains of their former lover, their carnal master.
The remnant who come out of Babylon, especially of America, but also from all nations of the earth, will establish that kingdom of God on earth, creating this purified bride, with which the kingdom of heaven will then unite in marriage.
This united husband and wife will then reign with benevolence over all the earth, administering to the various peoples of the earth what is best suited to their needs, their strengths, their weaknesses.

All the peoples of the earth will become united as one body, each contributing to the whole in a marvelous symphony which will be called Zion.
I don’t get tears much anymore because I am so used to learning wonderful things, both from my personal studies as well as from what others impart, but I have tears in my eyes now, and a lump in my throat as I ponder on the beauty of this revelation.
So as we anticipate this wedding, with all the jitters and all the distractions, perhaps this analogy can help us put things in their proper perspective.
That our hearts be inclined to God and the pending wedding that awaits us is my humble prayer which I offer in the name of Jesus Christ, our Savior and Redeemer.  Amen.

Sterling D. Allan

I fully recognize the fact that in today’s modern ‘PC’ environment, discussion of the nations/races is a charged topic, even more so than gender discussions. However, differences DO exist and should be understood, I believe.
My kids, going now to public schools, (we couldn’t afford private anymore and my wife couldn’t keep up with home schooling again at this point in time) think that I am racist because I don’t think it’s wise to intermarry–it brings a lot of baggage IMO.  My quick reply is that I didn’t create the peoples of the earth, God did.  And so there must be some cosmic reason and purpose behind this reality.  I say to them then that God must be racist to have created them yet they/we are ALL His children.  It’s no small secret to any scripture reader that God has commanded the peoples of the earth to remain (for the most part) distinct in their identities.  Why?
If however this topic is TOO hot for the folks in this forum or its moderator, just let me know and I’ll move on to other subjects.  Perhaps there is nothing to be gained here….or is there?